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: Hey I'm Mike Russell from music radio creative. And welcome to the Adobe Audition podcast honoring 25 years of Adobe Audition in this series of 25 episodes. I will interview power users of this awesome audio editing software we'll reminisce back to the cool that it predates through to the introduction of multi-track editing and bring you right up to date with Adobe Audition CC and features like the essential sound panel. This show is brought to you by the awesome audio gear giveaway if you'd like the chance to win my perfect audio creator studio setup. Head over to MRC dot fm slash win and enter now. There'll be mini prize draws every month with a final gig giveaway taking place at the end of September. That's MRC dot fm slash w i n for a chance to win. Good luck.
: My guest today is Darryl Dunwell. He began podcasting back in 2008 when he started a podcast about the TV show Fringe and then formed golden spiral media in 2010. It now has more than three dozen podcasts covering sci fi comic genres and has also been nominated for a dozen podcast awards including winning best entertainment in 2010 and TV and film category in 2017. Then in 2013 Darrell took it up a gear left his corporate job and he'd held that job 18 years. He started to become a full time entrepreneur created pro podcast solutions which now serves podcasters around the globe with their production their voiceovers custom artwork show notes publishing basically everything you could need as a podcast. Darrell welcome to the show.
: Thanks Mike it's a pleasure to be chatting with you today.
: It's awesome to have you on so I understand your primary tool that you are working in when you're working with Paul whole podcast Castaneda's is Adobe Audition. Tell us a little bit about how you using that.
: Yeah that's right. So we are exclusively Adobe Audition house if you will. We've just discovered over the years that the versatility that even the baked in toolset that comes with it is really that you know it's what we know the least. I Honestly Mike I started my business using audacity. It was free and I was familiar with it and it was great. But then as we expanded with our clientele and even our team members some of them on windows and some of them on Mac and of course the audio units that are built into a Mac. I had grown accustomed to using my windows guys weren't they didn't have that tool set. And so we needed to figure something out and I had beta tested Adobe Audition back in the day and I was like you know what we're making the switch over to Adobe Audition and we haven't looked back since that was several years ago. And it's it's been just a wonderful. Well I can't imagine running my business without it to be honest with you. It's powerful and gives us everything we need.
: It's fantastic absolutely amazing and like you say the the cross compatability those those units though they're a little bit tricky and they if you will if you're working on a Windows machine so are you using mainly the native effects in auditioned for podcasts production or do you have any plug ins that you use as well.
: Yeah our various editors have their own set of plug ins that they're able to decide which ones work best. The ones that are baked into it will be addition are wonderful. I'm using a few others in addition to that that I've picked up some of them for morning. Some of them from a con. Over the years Wavves have got a few of theirs. And then of course the X isotope or X plug ins are just amazing. So I use those as well
: Fantastic. So going back in time looking at all the years you've been working in concert auction and also before that producing your own podcast and learning from others in the industry what would you say Darrell is the best bit of audio production advice you've ever received.
: Let's think it goes back to what I was just talking about with all those plug ins that are out there the ones that come stock with Adobe Audition and all the great ones that are available from waves and isotope et cetera et cetera it's really easy to to just keep tweaking and adding a plug in here or adding any cue there or you know just layering and particularly in the multitrack editor where you can have your effects rack you can just. It's easy to just keep piling in effects and go oh I hear this let me put it in effect or tweak something to adjust that. And before you know it you've just got it layered with different effects. And so it's really easy in that situation to overbaked your audio if you will you know kind of like when you're when you're baking in the kitchen. Oh me just throw this in and throw this and this. And before you know you've got too many ingredients in that thing and so it's really wise just to kind of. OK I've got all this stuff in here. But do I need all this stuff. Let's let's turn these things off and let's really listen to this cleanly and make sure that these things aren't working against each other almost like a doctor overprescribing medicine. You know we've got one medication that's actually working against something else so don't overbaked your audio. You know really take a listen to what you've got before you export that and make sure that you're not over baking it
: That's very good advice and certainly if you've got really clean audio at source anyway to start with you really shouldn't need to do that much whether it's when you get those bits of audio that have Heyse in the background or sound terrible then you have to work a little bit harder but I think that's that's definitely solid advice especially for podcasting which you tend to go for more of a natural sounding you and producing podcasts would I be right in saying that
: Hitting podcast is a completely different type of editing than music for example. I mean your your source is obviously different you're working with human voice it's often in mono and then even what you're trying to accomplish is completely different. But but. And you need to be mindful of that. I mean some people who come from a an audio production background I'm not saying they can't do podcasts and they absolutely can. But it's but it's a different mentality a different type of approach that we're taking when we're editing that. But but you're right when you say it's those most difficult ones you know the ones that the audio comes to us. I mean really really not good. I want to be I want to be kind and just say it's not good. Those are the ones that's easier overbaked and it's a different approach for sure.
: Definitely so talking about you know projects that you get sometimes can can challenge you like for instance the bad audio quality and bits like that. What would you say over the years from the different clients you've worked with. What has been one of the most challenging projects you've worked on
: Oh well. Well OK so it always goes back to those those really junky sounding audios. And so for example we had I think it was six people sharing four microphones all sitting around a living room. None of them using good Mike technique. You know they really just had these four Mikes just kind of scattered around the room. I think they were sitting in a circle and some sofas and some stuff so none of them are even up to the microphone and it was just a nightmare trying to get this to sound. Wait another one a few weeks ago where there was a professional voiceover that the client had provided and it sounded great it wasn't professional like you would do or even my team would do. It was really really good. The person who did it had a nice voice and they were up on the mic and stuff like that it was just not quite the standard that you would expect but it was really close to it was really really high quality and then they the audio came in for the episode and they had you know stuck a Blue Yeti in the middle of a conference room and around three people.
: And when we gave them the audio back they said wait a minute I thought you were gonna be able to make that. You know that made audio sound as good as that voiceover part that we gave you and they were miked completely different. It was a completely different recording environment too. And I was like no that can't that can't be matched to that degree you know. And so those are challenges that again just trying to work with the client to to meet expectations somewhere there was a miscommunication there and what they thought we were capable of doing. Now Mike you can get the best audio engineer in the world they're not going to make a Blue Yeti with three people in the middle of a conference room sound like a professionally voice you know professionally might voice over artist is just not possible so those are challenges that we face. But sometimes it's just communicating and trying to get the client to to get things set up the right way.
: Absolutely. And I think that's key encouraging your client or the person recording to set things up in the right way initially. Or are they going out on the field and they're recording audio out and about that they get it in as good quality as possible using the right technique. I mean on a weekly basis we get e-mails asking about removing certain noises and sounds and some of them are really challenging like particularly in sermons removing coughing and other noises in the background while the main person is speaking. Stuff like that. I'm sure that stuff you would get quite a bit right.
: Oh sure yeah. And then some people don't mind those sorts of things because they had the ambulance or they just don't they don't mind those sorts of things. But yeah some people want every little nick you know cut out of it are edited out of it. And that's oftentimes in my opinion to their detriment or they want every little removed even though removing it you know makes this makes it sound unnatural or choppy and we try to coach them to there's some of that that is natural and makes it sound better it's easier to listen to. But at the end of the day you know some people want to take it anyway and it makes it challenging for sure.
: That's interesting. And on that topic of editing out how much discretion would you use sort of when working with a client of how much you remove from the content of the podcasts so would you overtime just work out what content stays and stays out. Or do you try and leave as much content as possible unless it gets really rambling.
: Yeah that's hard because we don't we don't claim to be professionals on content. We we don't know what you're talking about to the degree that you do. Knocking about the client here and so we really try not to be the judge of what it what the best content is. Now having said that sometimes I'll just back up and say so over time. You know we've worked with a client for for a long time and there's been good communication and what they're looking for then yeah we can learn and adapt. But certainly with a brand new client we don't claim to be able to do any type of content you know curation we we want them to kind of tell us what the good spots are and what the bad spots are and we can we can go clean that up that way. But there are times where we work over the client over time and you kind of build that rapport and those is one kind of comes to mind in particular we've been working together for momos two years now. And you know she and I you know I'll give her an edit and she'll give me comments back and. And now we've got it really down to a fine science. I mean it's rare that we have to do reedit with her because we're scrubbing out all the bad stuff we've been able to figure those things out over time so it can happen. But but it needs to take time they're the professionals and what the good content is and we look for communications from them to be able to clean that out.
: So since 2013 you've worked together with many of the well-known podcasters before that you've started up your own podcast but I'm curious Darrell if there's any cool project that you haven't told anyone about yet that youre really keen to work on in the future.
: You know I wouldn't say that it was something that I would personally like to do. Maybe maybe once. But you know as you mentioned my background in podcasting stems from the TV and film industry. And so I would love to just be a fly on the wall go into a major studio and watch them capture voices you know in a studio like voice over type of stuff or even see how they mix stuff on set and I've seen videos and stuff like that but I'd love to just follow along the whole trail from when the audio is captured all the way to and it gets into the sound engineer studio and watch how they do their magic again doing film work is a different type of technique than what we employ as podcasters but it's very similar. I know I learn a lot of stuff and I would think it would just be fun just to watch them do their magic. I have so much respect for. What they do and how they're able to match audio that's captured from different mags and different environments and things like that. So I think it would be fun just to kind of tag along and watch the professionals in the film and TV industry do their magic
: Would you ever have a dream to have say premises like a fully baked Podcast production studio you know kind of almost going Leo Laporte style but for Podcast production
: I don't know. Not really. I mean yes I love what Leo's doing and I look at his studio and I just think it's amazing. But that's a completely different type of thing than what I'm doing if I were doing more front front facing podcasting than. Yeah. I mean like I've built my studio here with with multiple recording bays and webcams and lighting and stuff like that so that when we do we used to do a lot of live streaming and stuff like that. But in terms of what I do for production not really because it's all behind the scenes stuff so I don't want the expense of having a storefront or a retail front or whatever. You know that dedicated space and all that. So no not really I'm really content with being able to do that at my house.
: And that is the beauty of podcasting I guess the fact that you don't necessarily need a shopfront it's all online you can collaborate and work with people around the world just remotely using some of these tools. For instance now we're recording this podcast using Zenn Casta which is fantastic. It's taking my side of the audio Derrell side of the audio stitching them both together and gives the finished product so that it sounds like way way in the same room so I can I can totally see that's interesting you say you've got your studio kitted down for livestream then webcasting to tell me a little bit more about that. I'm curious to know what it looks like and how you use that
: It's changed over the years. It used to be that we would stream every week when we recorded our podcasts the fringe podcast my cohost would come in studio. We've got a we've got two desks here that are in a T formation so I'm in one bay. He's in the other we'd have a Web cam on the far wall and just give us a one shot of that kind of a one wide shot in the middle we'd have a monitor between us that might show our our podcast logo or something like that. We've kind of we've kind of gone away from that set up is still here when I record with my daughter we do a stranger things podcast called The Stranger Things podcast and we still record in that way. But if we're going to do a live stream we'll do multiple web cams so we're kind of on a side by side shot or I've got one wall that's filled with all kind of pop culture toys and so we can move the cameras around and it gets natural light from a window or if it's in the evening we've got some lighting that we can do that we can use those toys as a backdrop and either use a bar stool or we can stand in that location and do so when we do unboxing if we get some new toys or something and we'll use that is our unboxing location. So it's a neat little fun backdrop because again we're doing TV pop culture podcasting
: Nice. I love it. So you obviously you've been an Oreo for a long time and most of the time with most of the people that are with myself and other guests that have been on the show we talk about their childhood and when it was they first kind of thought yes audio's for me and I really like the fact Daryl that you said you actually record a podcast with your daughter. I think it's fantastic to introduce children to audio from a young age into this whole world of podcasting. I'm curious for you what maybe one of your first memories was around audio that made you smile and made you think this is something I'm interested in.
: Back to the interview in a moment but if you want to in my perfect audio creator setup head over to mrc dot fm slash win.
: Yeah. I mean I don't have a lot of those childhood memories that of where I was like oh yeah this is where I want to do it but after I got into podcasting there was one thing that occurred to me and it took me years to even remember this but one day I was like oh my gosh maybe that was the first time I know that there was a connection there and I can remember I used to have I grew up and I was a child of the 80s and I grew I had this little radio little boom box type of thing a lot of us had a cassette in the middle. A couple of speakers have ham radio tuner and it had the most cassette players had the ability to record. And so I can remember laying on my bed one day playing around with that I had this cassette tape I don't know if it was one that I had taped over so I could make it into a blank tape or if it was a blank tape it was you know that I'd purchased. But I can remember just sitting there recording like journaling about my day was really an audio journal. When I think about it and I was just talking about some things that happened at school that day some of the weird things that some of the kids down there is a guy named Brian I remember Brian had done something he'd shaved his head. I think that day and he came to school Brian with a shaved head which was just bizarre.
: No one shave their head back. Most of us like kids. And I remember just sitting there talking about my day at school recording it and then rewinding it and listening to my voice and how my voice sounds so much different than what I thought it sound like because that's natural our inner ear hears it differently than other folks and so that's kind of the earliest thing I can remember. But I think most of us also and probably maybe someone today who grew up when when radio was really the best way to get music calling in and trying to get a request on the radio and maybe they might even you know play your request hey this came in from Darrell and he wants to hear you know you give love a bad name by Bon Jovi or whatever it was. And it was like that really cool. Oh my gosh I made it on the radio. I had that same type of experience the first time my feedback got played on a podcast I used to listen to Cliff Ravens Krass last podcast. That's what got me into podcasting and the first time he played my feedback it was that same experience like oh my gosh I made it on the podcast. And so that was really what that was. From that moment on I was like the bug bit me on podcasting and I was like OK this is something that I'm going to continue pursuing
: That's really cool I really like those stories. Yeah. Back in the 80s podcasts are practicing podcasting before it even existed as a medium. And yeah before I got into radio noise and radio myself I have memories of calling into stations and those were the days where play lists weren't strictly enforced so we asked for a song. You genuinely did stand a chance of having it played with all the formatted radio today that's pretty unlikely unless you request something that is on the on the hot list right then. I always used to be a bit colder into into talk radio stations as well to speak to the on air presenters about whatever topic they were talking about usually was. It was UFOs or something of that subject but yeah the buzz of actually getting through to the on air host or as you'd like to mention you know getting through to cliff with his last podcast and actually getting a piece played on on the on the air as it were is exciting and I think it's it's amazing that that can actually be replicated in the world of podcasting. If you just think as a podcast How is the the kind of ability you have to connect with your listener by doing things like that is fantastic. So yeah brilliant. I really want to get now deeper into your Adobe Audition usage. I'd also like to ask you a question about some resources. And of course the gear you're using there because I think that's very important. So let's start with Adobe Audition and if you had to pick out one feature only one feature from this wonderful piece of software what would be your favorite thing in Adobe Audition.
: Just one. Wow that's a hard question. If I had to pick one I would pick the spectral view editing the power of the spectral view because the waveform editor is wonderful. There's a lot that can be done there and maybe it's because as I said earlier I came from an audacity background and Audacity has a spectral view. But in terms of what you can edit within that view it's pretty limited it's more of a you use it to go look for things and then you need to attack those things from a different source a plugin or an ECU or something like that. The power of the spectra view in Adobe Audition is you can you can edit it from within there I can see that that ambulance siren I can see you know so many different things that phone ringing or whatever it is and I can eliminate those from within the spectral view I can see that plosive I can see that low frequency. Oh yeah. Here's a frequency where that home is coming from. Now let me go you know get that with an E Q or a notch filter or something like that to get that out of my recording so the spectral view I mean it's just so powerful what you can learn from and actually do from within that view. So that's probably my favorite thing.
: Agreed agreed. Spectral view I usually always have their own by default when I'm editing. And yeah particularly for picking up noises or mouth clicks. I'm really curious as you were talking about the audacity I see it's called specked spectrogram spectrogram or density and it doesn't. From what I can see it doesn't have the kind of scrubbing tools that audition has is that correct. So you can't actually edit directly into the spectra it's not really hard to say. Spectrogram or Dasti is that right. You have to use something like an EU to edit it manually is that right.
: That's I believe so it's been a while since I've used Dasti so and they've released several updates with them I'm actually part of a Facebook group of summit with some of the audacity engineers and so I I do kind of see when they make updates but I don't use it as a DAW so my experience with that they may have changed since the last time I used it I guess is what I'm trying to say but the last time I was using it as a door which was several years ago yeah it was exactly that you you couldn't actually scrub and do clean up from within that spectral view. Yeah they do call it something slightly different which is. But yeah you're right.
: Yeah. Awesome awesome and that's the spectral view what I really like about that is the fact that you can Markese the light frequencies you can use a paint brush to paint. I've you ever had a play with the spot healing brush told as well in the
: Yeah I have. Most recently I don't know if you know Kristie Haussler she has a fantastic podcast production company called Team podcast and she shared that tip with me just a few weeks ago. I typically will use a paintbrush let's pretend I've got some clicking and you missed it image and the mouth clicks and that's something I use it for as well so I've got some mouth clicks I'll go in there with my paintbrush and make the head the size I need it to and it just kind of stroke those out lightly and I may do a couple of strokes so I don't overdo it the first time and so I'll stroke and hit the delete button. That works really nicely. The auto heals what she uses and so it's more of a just a one click and then done there's no button press to go along with it and it works really really well so I'm playing back and forth right now because you kind of up to the software to do for you. Of course you can undo it. So it's playing with it now. Between the paintbrush and the auto heal and some of those decisions to see which one I like better but it's been really good so far.
: Brilliant. And what about amazing Flo's all time saving shortcuts for a debut edition. How does Darrell podcast what have you got keyed up. I'm really interested to know what you workflows like and what you would recommend for people.
: Yeah for me like my monitor is a 34 inch ultrawide monitor so I can see a whole lot of audio at one time. I think that's good although not required. I worked off of a 27 inch iMac for the longest time and that worked extremely well too. I used Apple's Magic Mouse stock Magic Mouse. I love it I know a lot of people don't or they want extra buttons or whatever but you know it can. It can do the right click sideways scroll up and down scroll. Everything I need it to do. I love it and I use Apple's stock numeric keyboard. And so those are those are my setups I don't use a specialized keyboard or anything like that. But the biggest thing that I have found is to save time are keyboard shortcuts Adobe Audition hasn't baked and of course learn those but the other thing that I do is I move I take it. Identify the ones that I want. The either the plug ins or even the commands that I use the most whether it's a delete or RIPL delete all tracks or just delete this section on the singletrack you've got so many delete options that are great noise. Maybe you want to use your noised filter or use some other. I use a clicker that I have on a key things like that I will move all those to the left hand side of my keyboard.
: I'm a right handed guy so left is my non dominant hand so my right hand's able to stay on my mouse and I use it for navigating through the through the audio never have to lift my hand off there. So that's saving me time and I take all those keyboard shortcuts that I use for the tools I use the most and I move them to a single key. I rename them to a single key in the left hand position so I never have to move my hand around so as I'm editing audio My hands aren't moving I'm not losing time by extra button keys even though second button key like a command X or something like that is to button presses and those add up is like pennies in a jar. If you ever saved pennies in a jar or you know maybe do it now or we do that are kids those add up and suddenly you've got enough time to go our money to go in the same way. Vacation to six flags or whatever amusement arcade in your neck of the woods. So that's the same thing with multiple button presses single button press non dominant hand so that my hands never have to leave their position because all that little those little seconds add up and I've found that that saves me an immense amount of time when I'm when I'm editing audio
: I love that Yeah that's right. Their single button press is an awesome tip. And I would say yeah when I went I'm using single keys on a keyboard. I would even look at the key letters and trying to associate them with a word words so one time I was using cue for quiet and normalize VIF of vocal processing things like that. So yeah definitely because some of them for instance I often use safe selection as I think that's a Command Option control you know I have to do acrobatics with the fingers to get his keys down especially if you're using one hand. So brilliant brilliant stuff
: I've got like it to toggle between multitrack and spectral view or multipack track and single track editor. I've got a toggle one Keiffer that for my zooming is for my exports the exports to if I want to export the time selection or the entire project I'll get those set to single key shortcuts. You know everything that you're using in your standard workflow put those two single keys and I get moving to the left side of the keyboard so I don't have to move my hands around and try to do acrobatics.
: Nice nice and you've actually got me thinking that we talk about exporting. I'm curious as a pro podcast producer working with many podcasters what kind of quality will get right. And obviously I would imagine you'll exporting is an MP 3 file. What are your standard settings do you have standard settings is a vary from client client what are you shooting for. I think that would be really interesting to know
: Sure clients do have the ability if they've got a preference we go with that unless it's just some sort of outlandish preference like if they want to export as a wave and actually publish as a way of we're not going to we're not going to know we're going to highly rail against that. But yeah. MP 3 our standard is either 128 stereo 44 1. And then of course 128 bit rate. Or will do 80 kilobits per second Monteux which is a little bit higher quality. No technically speaking we could go 64 mono and still with the same as 128 stereo. For me it's more of a mental thing. I think why I do Ettie it's like OK it's a smaller file size which is great but why don't we use that smaller file size and get a little bit better quality out of it. I should probably just do 64 have to stick around to talk myself out of it so we do 80 Monteux or 128 stereo
: Love it. That's cool. What about your go to resources and. Let's talk about kids as well. Gear that you've got in your podcast production studio what does it for you. Daryl that you're looking towards are using yourself.
: Well in terms of editing image and some of that already with the keyboard the mouse the monitor for my earphones I've got some audio technica mix fifty's I believe the author called I should pull them over. But you know they're on my head so that's what I'm using in terms of recording gear my mic is and let your voice are 320. I'm running everything through a sound craft EPM 6 audio mixer that goes into my Mac via Scarlet to add to audio interface and I'm running a DBI x 166 X cell compressor limiter gate. That's yeah that's what I'm running hardware wise.
: Excellent. Do you think actually it's good to have a DBI XIV The to success. Do you think it's worth podcasters in particular getting some kind of Mike preemptions process in between their microphone and their audio interface.
: It depends. I do not recommend podcasters getting a gate. Most of them don't know how to use it and they're going to chop off words and we can't add in words in post-production. I'd rather do a gate in post-production but in terms of an audio or Mike preamp sometimes it Kig depends on their setup if there I can as some 7 be from. Sure. Wonderful microphone. It's a game hog even my electro voice 320 or 320 or hile PR 40. Those can really be gain Hogge microphones and so Scarlette a lot of podcasters will run that mic into a scarlet and then run that into their their computer for recording that way and that could work really well but it can also really taxed at preamp on the scarlet and if they're getting some line hiss then that's the point where you might want to consider a mic preamp the one you have is excellent by the way and that's the one that I recommend. If they want to go that route. So I think it depends on what their current preamp is like and what their microphone is.
: I love it. Yeah absolutely you're right. You cannot Atwoods back in and with being so easy to apply in post. Yeah definitely. Unless you unless you know what you're doing and you set it up at a sweet spot like that kind of thing happened in post really really good stuff. So just to wrap up before we finish. For somebody listening right now he's thinking of getting into this whole industry into the audio creation audio production Podcast production industry. What would be your one piece of advice to that young person right now hoping to make a career out of this
: If they're a young person one thing that has occurred to me I think it's mostly from observing my kids and their friends and this isn't I don't mean this to sound derogatory because they're kids and before talking about real kids here. Kids want to be things but they don't necessarily want to become those things. So in other words you might say I want to be an audio engineer for a film studio or a music studio or whatever I want to want to create my own music. I want to be a music creator and music producer or what have you. That's great. What are you doing to become that you know are you spending your time just playing videogames all day. That's great kids need to do that. But at some point if you really want to be that you have to choose to become that. And so I would just say get out there and get your hands dirty and get to work with whatever you can create your own recordings and figure out how to make those better if you're more advanced. Been doing it for a while. Try to get out there as a freelancer and get work go to school take classes at a low tech or a college or online. Mike you've got some great tutorial videos that you've created and have put out there in places like Utami and learn from people and it comes down to actually doing it and actually becoming. You don't get better unless you do. And I wouldn't be doing what I do now as a full time podcast producer if I hadn't first started you know creating my own podcast and editing knows I was my first victim if you will and I learned a lot by editing myself. So just get out there and do it. You know don't don't don't hope to be something one day without being willing to become that. Now
: Love your passion and something follow that passion. Chase the dream down. Learn as much as you can. Brilliant. Darrell thank you so much. This has been an enlightening conversation. And I'm curious if anybody is interested to know more about you. Was the the one place you'd point somebody to find out more about you and maybe connect with you online.
: Yeah my website is pro podcast solutions dot com that's where we do all the work for podcasters. If you happen to be curious about what we're doing and then for our own podcasts and TV and film genres with sci fi and comic stuff that's golden spiral media dotcom.
: Some Madero it's been exciting it's been fun and thanks for joining me on the show.
: It's always great chatting with you. It's a real pleasure. Thank you for having me.
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