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Adobe Audition Podcast

Hosted by Mike Russell

Adobe Audition Podcast – Larry Jordan

Hey I'm Mike Russell from Music Radio Creative. And welcome to the Adobe Audition podcast honoring 25 years of Adobe Audition in this series of twenty five episodes. I will interview power users of this awesome audio editing software. We'll reminisce back to the Cool Edit Pro days through to the introduction of multi-track editing and bring you right up to date with Adobe Audition CC and features like the Essential Sound panel. This show is brought to you by the awesome audio gear giveaway. If you'd like the chance to win my perfect audio creator studio setup. Head over to MRC dot fm slash win and enter now. There'll be mini prize draws every month with a final gear giveaway taking place at the end of September. That's MRC dot FM slashed w i n for a chance to win. Good luck.

This is my guest on the show today is Larry Jordan. Larry is an award winning producer, director, editor, teacher and trainer. And he's been involved in the media industry for 50 years. Now in this time he's produced directed and edited local broadcast TV stations network television in the U.S. and created so many corporate training videos that he's completely lost count. But they are really really fantastic. So we're going to get an overview of some of the work that Larry has done how he uses Adobe Audition some of the challenging projects he's worked on in this episode and perhaps even some of the goals for the future. Now Larry is based in Los Angeles a very warm part of the world. In fact we were just talking about it and comparing it to the fair Island where I'm from where it does occasionally rain. So I'm very excited to welcome Larry Jordan to the show. Larry welcome.

Mike it's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invitation.

Absolute pleasure. So let's start with how you're using this awesome piece of audio editing software Adobe Audition. How do you generally use the software yourself?

Well there's only one answer and that's perfectly.

That's a very good answer.

I got my start years and years before you were born. Working in radio and I'll tell you the radio story a little bit later today but I don't want to inflict it on your quite soon. But audio has been a part of my life since I first got involved with media. But today I'm using Audition to do a podcast. We do a weekly podcast and have been since the year 2000. We use Audition for mixing pics to film. I do a lot of video training we use it for all of our audio tracks. The one thing I've discovered that I don't use Audition for is music and there's a really good reason for that. And if you ask nicely at some point I'll tell you that story too.

Great. That sounds really interesting. Let's start I do want to get into why you're not using it for music. But tell me a little bit piqued my interest there where you said I have been editing and working in radio since before you were born. Wow. So obviously you have been editing and creating audio since before DAWs existed. What was that like?

I got my start in radio when I was in college. Now those were back in the days of of reel to reel audio tape and cartridges that had the commercials recorded on them and everything was analog. And during my college years my parents thought I was majoring in sociology but I was actually majoring in college radio station and I spent four years devoting my life to taking this college radio station and building it up I was learning management skills I was learning people skills but I had absolutely fallen in love with the technology and the results of audio. So my very first job out of college was at the beautiful music FM station in northern Illinois Rockton, Illinois. I was broadcasting to the cattle and sheep and every 15 minutes I would get on the microphone I would say ladies and gentlemen that was the Mantavoni Strings. Coming up next the Boston Pops and then 15 minutes later I would say ladies and gentlemen that was the Boston Pops coming up next the Mantovani Strings and then at the top of the hour I would do a 90 second rip and read newscast tearing the text off the teletype. I was in hog heaven. You could not have a better job than that. And it lasted for three months. And the program director called me into his office. Son, he said because I was younger than, Son you are a second tenner. We need a baritone. Enjoy the rest of your life and that quickly. The door to my radio career had slammed shut in my face. Ah I was devastated. Fortunately the exact same day I got fired on radio I got hired as a camera person at WHA television in Madison, Wisconsin. I made a 90 degree pivot. I've been working in television with an emphasis on audio ever since. So it really is. Oh and then and I don't tell this to just anyone. But ever since the day that I got fired in radio when I wake up the next morning I look at myself in the mirror and I say you OK yes I'm OK. I've been working to make my voice go three notes lower so the next time radio calls looking for a baritone I will be ready.

I'll tell you what it's worked. It's worked. You have an amazing voice so are you doing any radio work now? Do you do you work in that industry any more?

No but remember the podcast I mentioned it's called Digital Production Buzz, the oldest podcast on the planet is All Things Digital which Adam Curry started in May of 2000. The Digital Production Buzz is the second oldest podcast in the world. It started in September of 2000 started by two gentlemen both of whom have retired. I took it over in the year 2000 so I've been running it now for for 11 going on 12 years and every week we create an audio podcast focused on media production post-production and marketing helping independent filmmakers and corporate media producers understand the technology of our industry and and try to figure out how to make a living in this crazy business that we're in. So for every week we record elements of the show and produce the entire show on Adobe Audition. In fact I'm in Audition probably three days a week even though my training is focused on video and video editing. The program the Digital Production Buzz is all wrapped around Audition so I fell in love with Audition years and years ago and we've been using it now for hundreds of episodes and thousands of interviews.

That's wonderful. Good to hear. And yeah definitely. I mean podcasting for 11 years that's awesome. And what I would like to know is over that time speaking to hundreds maybe thousands of independent media producers and in your time before that working in television and of course as you mentioned there in this story and in radio aspiring to be a baritone you must have come across some really interesting people who've given you all kinds of advice down the line. If you could single out maybe a single piece of really good audio production advice is there anything you can think of that you would say?

It's the reason that I don't do music. So here's here's the situation about. Gosh. Now it was 20 years ago it's amazing when I think it was actually 18 years ago 18 years ago. I was working for a company owned my own company and have for many years. But back then I was working for another company and they were they were quite large and as you know Bermuda has a jazz festival every year similar to the music festival Isle of Wight. And our company which is big enough to afford this sort of stuff decided that what they would do as a promotion is they would give away a CD filled with literature about our company's products to everybody that got off the plane to attend the Bermuda Jazz Festival. Now the content of the CD I wasn't responsible for but they asked me to put together the open because I was the only person in the company that could spell audio. They said Why don't you put something that sounds interesting as an audio theme for this DVD as this CD that's going to be handed out at the Bermuda Jazz Festival. My life has been spent producing and directing television and I can direct music. I have directed symphony orchestras I can direct performers but I have never recorded music. This is the very first time and I said this is a great opportunity for me to record music because I've always dreamed of being in a recording studio and watch this concept that since somebody had turned into a song that people can sing. I've always been in awe of that and decided this was the perfect opportunity for me to do this except I had no budget. I had Audition I had an idea of sort of what I wanted to do but I was such the babe in the woods. I did not know what I did not know. And so with wild enthusiasm I promptly stepped off the cliff. I knew that Darlene in accounting had sung in church and I thought it would be kind of cool if I put a vocal on this. So I grabbed from a stock music library I grabbed a forty second piece of music that had a jazz feel to it. No vocals just a jazz feel and laid that track down inside Audition. I said it needs something. So I went over to two to Darlene and I said Darlene I'm trying to put together an open for the Bermuda Jazz Festival and I'd like to have somebody sing the music to to sort of give it some life. And she looked to me and she didn't say anything one way or the other she said Well do you have any any charts. I said What's a chart. She said you have any music. I said No I don't have any music. She said Do you have a sense of what you want this. I said No no just sing something. This is like handing an author a blank white sheet of paper and say write something. I mean just how brain dead was this. But I was still clueless and we were still falling off the cliff. So Darlene took pity on me and said All right well I'll come over and give you a hand so that afternoon she came over I had a little whisper room recording booth in a closet in the company. And she said Well let's play the music so I played the 40 second piece of music and it was perfectly innocuous jazz like had a beginning a middle and an end and absolutely nothing that you would send home to mother and she nodded her head and said OK let's just see what we can do here. So she steps in the in the the recording studio and I play the music and punch the record button for Channel 2 and I'm recording her mic on Channel 2 and she knocks out this oh 20 second skep piece of jazz which is just really cool and she steps out of the booth I says Darlene That was amazing. That was just really cool. Thank you so much. And she she looked at me like I was something that crawled out from under a rock and she said Well aren't you going to double it. I said what's doubling. She said that's where I sing the same part again to give the voice some fullness. Realizing that I was now smashing boldly against the rocks at the foot of the cliff I gave myself up I says OK let's double this. She went back in doubled the voice I said amazing. Now what should I do. She said we're going to double it again. I'm going to put something on top so she sings that the third time puts this deescant on the top. That's just spectacular. And I said but that's only the first 20 seconds of the music she said yeah we're going to put something on at the tag end and we go through this six times I've got three voices for the first two thirds and three voices for the last two thirds and she puts the stinger at the end that just soars out over the whole music and it fades to black and I realize that I have just been schooled in everything that I don't know about music. It was a wonderful wonderful piece of of just improvisational jazz by the time she was done. Realizing that I was in completely over my head and I owed her everything to have this thing sound as good as it was as we were leaving I thanked her profusely and I said Darlene I know you work in accounting here during the week but what do you do on weekends. Because this was just amazing she says so on weekends I perform I said doing what she says I'm a backup singer for Anita Baker. At that point I said OK that was my one musical thing how can I beat that. Working with a backup singer for Anita Baker I faded my tent to black and stayed with video ever since except for the talking voice.

So that's why you don't do music in Audition.

I have I achieved the pinnacle. There was nothing more that could be done.

So I mean that in itself sounds like it was pretty challenging project to work on and to get to grips with it sounds like you really you learnt a lot like you say about music during that. Is there anything else any other projects you've come up against that have been really challenging?

Well that was a learning project that I use when I teach. I tell people that it's really important to know what you don't know and that was a classic example of how much I really didn't know. And part of the reason that I don't do music is simply because there's so much about it that I don't know but I do know the spoken voice and I do know mixing video and I enjoy creating a project whether it's in Premiere or whether it's in Final Cut and bringing all that audio over him to Audition and putting a multi-track mix together to really make it pop and so it sounds good and I do that on a weekly basis. So from the point of view of taking existing music and working with new voices and cleaning it all up this is the kind of bread and butter work that I do and Audition on a daily basis. But if you think about if you're asking about what the most challenging project is that would be one that we do every year. My podcast is an official podcast of the National Association of Broadcasters show the NAB show in Las Vegas every April and starting ten years ago we decided that what we really need to do is that we need to turn ourselves into a radio station and we broadcast about 120 interviews from the trade show during the three and a half days that NAB runs so we in our 20 by 20 foot booth. I bring in a production crew of about 11 people and four seats of Audition and we are broadcasting live and then we take all those live interviews we do a 45 minute show take a five minute break and we start and do the whole thing all over again. We talk to four guests per show and we're broadcasting live recording in Audition clean up the multi-track recording fed over dante from the audio mixer into Audition clean up all that feed the show back and post it so people can listen to it who are not attending NAB then strip out each individual interview taking out the music and post the individual interviews so that the companies that were on the show can then post those to social media to gain additional visibility for their own company. And we do this in real time so that stuff is aired at 9:00. It's edited the show finishes at 9:45. It's been edited by 10:15. It's posted on the web and getting social media by 10:30 it's the closest to live radio broadcasting that we get and it's enormous pressure and it's enormous fun and we could not do it without the speed and the power that Audition provides.

That's brilliant. Sounds like a well oiled machine to me over the time you've been running that yearly show from the NAB Show. It sounds to me even more efficient than some radio stations having it on the air and then off the air and then within 15 or 30 minutes promoted on social media and edited speedily in Adobe Audition. That's that's fantastic.

Back to the interview in a moment but if you want to in my perfect audio creator setup head over to MRC dot FM slash win

It is. You are absolutely right. In order for this to work in order I mean a special thing you can take and can sort of run on square wheels because it's a one time only but if you do the same thing over and over and over it has to be cookie cutter. It has to be formalized. It has to be a well oiled machine or it runs off the rails and one of the things that I really love is that Audition lends itself to being a well oiled machine. I can plug it in either with analog sources or with dante I can record multichannels so every mic is on their own channel. I've got more audio control in terms of gain and shaping the sound and EQ and the multiband compressor is my absolute favorite tool to take voices and bring them up and make them sound like the speaker is alive. Then I can output multiple ways at the same time during export. Have somebody else do QA on it and have a third person post and do all the SEO work to the Web. It just it is like this river flowing downstream and once we get it running it's the first show as a train wreck in the second show we've got it figured out by the third show it's locked and so every 45 minutes we've got a new show rolling through the machine and each each one of them sounds just perfect.

I notice you mentioned a few of your favorite effects and editing tricks inside Adobe Audition and I look forward to talking more to you about that in the show. What actually really caught my ear is that you said and I think this will benefit a lot of people listening right now if they're doing something on a weekly or monthly basis if they're producing a podcast or some kind of content like you say it has to be formalized you have to get that kind of cookie cutter approach that you can apply to any episode or any any show or any piece of content you're creating. And like you say Audition is perfect for that so I'm sure you have some some good timesaving workflows and tricks and I'm really interested to talk some more about them shortly. Let's talk Larry now about the future. So you have a wealth of experience in all kinds of different mediums and broadcast but is there anything really cool that you'd like to work on maybe something that you haven't even told anyone about yet?

I'll take any paying gig that comes through the front door. Let's be honest here. The thing I grew up when LIVE television was still an event and to me there's nothing like life to do a live musical performance to do a live television broadcast is running along a high wire without a net. To me that's just the most fun there is. The industry has moved way past that everything is now pre taped and packaged and perfect. But if I were to pick something I would I would do something which was live. That would be my first choice and the other is one of the things that I really like is that audio rarely stands alone audio was always part of a larger project and the things that I've enjoyed the most is being part of the team that's putting together something which is far too big for one person to do by themselves. And so if I were to look for my next project it'd be something where I get to work as part of a team as opposed to as a solo artist I'd like to work as part of the team putting something live together. I think that would be that would be just tremendous.

That's cool. Now I've got a question for you as a great teacher of editing and getting a really efficient workflow in your editing whether it's like you say working in Premiere Pro. Final Cut Pro or Adobe Audition. Indeed. And you mention about working in a live environment. How does that compare with an environment where you're recording and you're editing and post processing and do you believe that live is allowed to be a little bit more rugged round the edges or should it be really polished. So what's your opinion on the whole comparison there?

The definition of live is rugged around the edges. You can't get perfect. I mean look at the times, Mike, when you were editing in an Audition and you would you would cut a breath out because you didn't want that breath there it just. Or maybe there was a click at the top of the breath or a lip click you were getting out and so you get the little razor blade out and you're happily cutting away to get rid of all these little glitches in live if you get the levels close you're feeling like you've achieved a miracle. So the standards for excellence are different for live than they are for recorded. And if I want perfection I'll record it. That's the definition of why we record I want to get exactly the right answer I want exactly the right intonation. I want to get exactly the right breath and the right pacing and get rid of the stuff that doesn't make any sense. You have to record. You can't do that live. But if you have an event which can't be done recorded it's occurring as the world is watching. Well now my standards are different. One do I have hum on the line. Can I get rid of that? Because I had a setup that happened during the rain the night before. Do my level sound good? Is everything in sync by the satellite correctly? We've got entirely different challenges when we're doing live and the pressure is if we screw it up people will accept a bad picture. If I lose color and we're looking at this thing and black and white the audience will stay with us if I lose the audio. I have no audience so people obsess about getting the lighting perfect and the hair and makeup perfect and the blocking perfect than the camera focused. And then they hand this tin cup to a deaf guy in the corner say here mic this thing. I mean this is just brain dead audio has to be front and center of any live presentation. And when it is it'll forgive any errors in video but errors in video don't forgive errors in audio. So it's it's really really important in live that you focus on what the audience is there for they must hear they want to see.

In just a minute I want to get straight into the nitty gritty of Adobe Audition. Some of the features workflows maybe even the resources and gear you use when working with audio. The final question I want to ask you on you know the some of the stories about projects you've worked on and and the future the way you look into the future. I want to go back in time with you a little bit Larry back to your childhood and obviously you have this great passion for audio. So where did that start? Can you pinpoint it to a certain place where you experience audio in a certain way and thought hmm. This is something I want to do.

I discovered that one could get out of class in high school if you knew how to turn the power on a film projector. So I became part of the A.V. Club at high school which then led me to go to college and fall in love with the college radio station. It was the college radio station that really got my my love for audio started. That was just seminal because that set the direction of my career for the rest of my life.

Wow college radio. And so what was your first role inside college radio were you on the air? Did you have a show and how did that go?

It was college radio. I was on the air. How could it not go great? I mean this is the greatest ego massage a kid could have. We had an audience of I think two and it was mostly people in a barn. But nonetheless we had a 10 watt FM transmitter. It is impossible to understate the size of our audience. It was fun. I was I started off just as a straight announcer had like a one hour show and we had about 20 volunteers that worked for the station. This is everything except professional but then I worked from that up to news director and we did hourly newscast and I got to program director and then we went from on the air five hours a day. By the time I was done and general manager we had a staff of 75 people we were on 24 hours a day seven days a week and quadrupled the budget. So I have very fond memories of of how I could take something and grow it with college radio not just in terms of the audio but in terms of the business surrounding the audio.

Looking at Adobe Audition which is this year celebrating its 25th birthdays it's come a long way since Cool Edit and Version 1.0. When Adobe purchased the software from Syntrillium and now we're in the Creative Cloud with so many great features and you already sort of alluded to this earlier when you mentioned how much you really really like the multiband compressor. So what is your favorite feature would it be that and if it is the multiband compressor. Why? And what's your favorite preset in there?

There's two answers to that question. The first answer depends upon what your level of experience with audio is. Now I'm a trainer. I teach people how audio works. But I would never ever consider myself a mastering engineer. My hearing isn't that good. So the kind of work that I do is designed to help people make their audio sound better without requiring a masters degree in audio engineering. So to me the most powerful features within Audition are the ones which allow us to set presets which while maybe not perfect are so much better than anything else that we can obtain that we can use these over and over again to get repeatable high quality results in a very limited amount of time with a limited amount of knowledge about audio because that's the role that most video editors play. They need to have their audio sound good. They can't necessarily in every project send it to an audio post house but it's got to sound better than it sounds and Premiere it's got to sound better than it sounds and Final Cut and Audition is perfect for that. Within that parameter of making amateurs sound like pros. Several things about Audition I like number one on my website which is Larry Jordan dot com. I have about 2000 tutorials on everything from audio and video for Apple and Adobe products. For the last 4 years last 4 years the absolute number one favorite article. Week after week without fail getting something like 10 or 15,000 hits a week consistently is how to warm up a voice and how to improve clarity and all it is is an illustrated tutorial in writing of how to use the parametric EQ to warm up the base of a voice whether it's a guy or girl and how to warm up the treble so that you can improve the clarity of consonants which are all high frequency sounds and improve the warmth of the voice which are vowels which are all low frequency sounds. This one piece of advice can do more to shape the sound and make a voice sound warm and inviting and sexy and intelligible. Not by raising the gain but by looking at the different frequencies that are inside the voice and raising specific sequences depending on whether it's a man a woman or a child to get the most out of that voice without just simply raising the game. And it's like all of a sudden the scales fall from the eyes and people see this and they say I can do this. I can do this. I can make my voices sound great. And that to me is the success of Audition is that you don't have to be an audio wizard to be able to achieve professional results. Along the same line the multiband compressor set to the broadcast preset the preset menu you know is in the top left menu top left corner set that to broadcast, turn off the brickwall limiter and set the margin from its default of zero which is just a stupid number. Set it to negative 3 this without changing any other setting. It'll take the soft passages of your voice and make them loud without distorting the loud passages of your voice. It's going to make your narrator sing out on top of the music and on top of the sound effects. So with simple simple tools simple tools we make voices sound so much better they can sound anywhere else. It is worth the time and the effort to learn audition to be able to learn how to use the parametric EQ to shape a voice how to use the multiband compressor which by the way should always be last you apply all your filters first .The the multiband compressor to bring your levels up and then on your master track drop in the Hard Limiter set it to negative 3 with a 0 gain and it just makes sure that everything is right around negative 16 LUFS which is where you want it for any kind of web posting and for people that are experts and doing feature film mixes they know that their LUFS have to be at negative 24 and are laughing at all of my settings but 99 percent of the work that I and the people that I train do is going to the Web. You don't want it distorted you want nice clean vocals you want nice clean narration you want nice levels you want it right around negative 16 LUFS and you can lock that in with Audition and concentrate on the content not being an audio engineer. That's the power that Audition has. Is that it works without you having to understand how it works.

I love the fact you've actually given some really good practical advice there. I think those listening to the podcast will need to actually replay a few times so that they can write down all those settings because that's amazing especially setting up the the multiband compressor but indeed the parametric EQ fantastic for sweeping up and sweeping through and checking frequencies that you want to work on so that's absolutely brilliant so even right there you've given us some amazing workflows inside Audition and in your I think it's 2002 tutorials you mentioned on Larry Jordan dot com. You give a plethora of different ideas of how you can be using Audition and how you can edit well with Adobe Audition. But can you give us. Have you got any more that you can share with us. Amazing workflows or maybe even timesaving tips for those using Audition.

If you've got voices the best thing that you can do is to record all of your actors on separate channels because Audition makes it really easy to put a voice on each channel. So try to avoid recording everybody on multiple mics don't record them on the same channel. This is like audio recording 101. Everybody gets their own channel and when you think about it we've got devices like sound devices and other digital recorders which allow us on set to record multi-channel audio which Audition just pulls in and lays out two different channels easily. The new track feature inside Audition which allows us to enable or disable tracks allows us to take even complex mixes and just focus on the tracks that we want. The other thing is there's a couple of performance preferences that you want to turn off when you go to the preferences setting inside Audition. If you're on a Macintosh and I don't use Windows so I don't have advice for that. Be sure to set the the rendering engine to be Metal rather than OpenCL you're going to get faster audio performance. Go to the section I think it's on audio playback and turn off growing files. This is on by default and it shouldn't be but growing files are those kind of files think sports broadcast where the file changes over time because you're editing the beginning while you're still recording the end and turning off growing files means that it's going to speed up the performance of of Audition and there's another setting in there which I'm… Let's see, setting it to Metal is going to give you faster audio rendering and faster performance and turning off growing files is going to be faster access to your hard disk are two of the preference settings and I've got more. Again, all of my tutorials for free the stuff I charge for is my training but the tutorials are not so do go to the Larry Jordan dot com website click on the free resources button and go to the tutorials at the top and just type in Audition and you'll find something like three or four hundred articles that describe how the software works and how to make the most of it.

I really like this advice and some of the under the hoos stuff you mentioned there Larry. With setting up Audition to work smarter and faster is absolutely brilliant. So talking about resources and obviously the tutorial videos you have at your Web site. Let's talk more about audio resources in particular. I'm particularly interested in audio gear. So maybe you can give some recommendations there particularly that microphone because you've got a good voice anyway but it's sounding really good on that mic. So what kind of gear are you using?

Well right now if you look at the audio gear this is this is not a small setup I've got an AKG 520C headset microphone that's what you're hearing me on that's going into an APHEX Master Voice Controller which is doing the preprocessing that's coming out and going into a Scarlett who makes Scarlett, Focusrite. It's a Focusrite Scarletr is doing the A to D conversion and then we're recording this via the web. So I've got the AKG mic the APHEX preamp voice controller is doing all kinds of shaping not everything the box does but it's making sure that basic stuff is done Focusrite is doing the A to D conversion. I also have I'm a big fan by the way I've discovered that lavalier microphones are different for men or women. If you're a man I like the Tram TR50 lavalier which is beautiful but if you're a woman the Tram doesn't sound as good. I like the Sennheiser MHE series instead for women for lavaliers for short shotguns I'm a fan of Rodes. Those are always good and especially the Rode 2 I like a lot and for the podcast I'm working an Electro-Voice RE20 because how can you not love the sound of an Electro-Voice RE20 when you're you're on set on studio and you need something that just sounds like it's just incredibly warm and friendly.

Absolutely yeah. And I do have that many podcasters use that RE20 from Electro-Voice which is brilliant. So some great gear suggestions there and a brilliant episode that definitely I think is going to be needed to be played back multiple times. Not only the stories we started with but also some real practical advice there for working inside Adobe Audition. So just to wrap up and to finish the show Larry. I'd love to talk to that young and aspiring audio producer or let's face it audio creator in this new age we're heading into with creating online audio and online content so that young and aspiring audio creator who wants to get into the industry. What advice would you have for them?

The best advice I've got is if you can find anything else to do with your life don't get into audio because the competition is so severe and the budgets are so tight and the deadlines are so so short that unless you absolutely love it all you're going to do is drive yourself nuts. But if you love it you could not have a better time to get into digital audio and digital video than right now we've got access to distribution that we've never had before. When I was in radio we required hundreds of thousands of dollars in gear to be able to broadcast to sheep. Here you can get on YouTube or you can get on any of a number of Web sites and get your programs heard by people across the world. At no cost. It's never been easier it's never been harder it's never been more challenging it's never been more difficult to make a living. But it's never been easier. So if you are driven to create sounds that other people listen to whether it's music or soundtracks to television programs or feature films or sound design or commercials there's a huge market for commercials. This is an ideal time but it is not easy. And if you have something else you love instead then do audio as a hobby. But if you can't live without audio I wish you all success.

So essentially you have got to have the passion for it. Well Larry you certainly have the passion for it not only audio but just editing producing and creating in general. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for taking the time out of your day to come on this show and obviously you've mentioned your own show one of the oldest and longest running podcasts in the world Digital Production Buzz at digital production buzz dot com. But if people just want to lock you up and find you online where is the main place you'd send them to?

The best place to go is my Web site which is Larry Jordan dot com and that's got all kinds of tutorials written tutorials and video tutorials and audio tutorials and all kinds of stuff. A huge amount of resources. And if you're lonely send me an email. Larry at Larry Jordan dot com if I can help I will.

Nice. Larry thanks for joining me on the show.

Mike it's been my pleasure. Thank you for the invitation.

That concludes this episode would you like an extra chance to win the awesome audio gear giveaway? Hit subscribe and review this podcast then email it details to podcast at MRC dot fm for an extra entry into the awesome audio giveaway. Good luck.

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